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+--- Thread: AMA About Sierra! (/showthread.php?tid=38)
RE: AMA About Sierra! - dmouse097 - 09-28-2025
(09-27-2025, 11:29 PM)Josh_Mandel Wrote: Then again, maybe you're not really asking about SCI, or the tools...I don't know. There are so many dynamics at play here, when I think of games I've worked on post-Sierra, if they had been done at Sierra instead of wherever they were incubated...I guess they would probably have turned out significantly different from what they are, and I can't be sure if they would have benefitted overall or not. I do know that there have been very few times that I thought, "If only I was doing this at Sierra." The exceptions are those cases when there are particular people from Sierra I wish I could get for a given project, or when I wish the infrastructure was there to provide support.
Does that answer the question? I'm not sure.
Maybe. I could argue that, had SpaceVenture been designed at Sierra, it would have been made in a real adventure-focused engine, which would have reduced the number of delays from reprogramming a FPS engine to accommodate. That, in turn, might have sped up the process where other things didn't happen, and the principals all would have been together, and the production time reduced by several years.
Of course, I could just be talking nonsense there. I have yet to really enjoy your writing in that game; I haven't been motivated to get past the first screen for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with you.
RE: AMA About Sierra! - Josh_Mandel - 09-28-2025
(09-28-2025, 10:45 AM)dmouse097 Wrote:(09-27-2025, 11:29 PM)Josh_Mandel Wrote: Then again, maybe you're not really asking about SCI, or the tools...I don't know. There are so many dynamics at play here, when I think of games I've worked on post-Sierra, if they had been done at Sierra instead of wherever they were incubated...I guess they would probably have turned out significantly different from what they are, and I can't be sure if they would have benefitted overall or not. I do know that there have been very few times that I thought, "If only I was doing this at Sierra." The exceptions are those cases when there are particular people from Sierra I wish I could get for a given project, or when I wish the infrastructure was there to provide support.
Does that answer the question? I'm not sure.
Maybe. I could argue that, had SpaceVenture been designed at Sierra, it would have been made in a real adventure-focused engine, which would have reduced the number of delays from reprogramming a FPS engine to accommodate. That, in turn, might have sped up the process where other things didn't happen, and the principals all would have been together, and the production time reduced by several years.
Of course, I could just be talking nonsense there. I have yet to really enjoy your writing in that game; I haven't been motivated to get past the first screen for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with you.
No, I don't think it's nonsense, I think it's correct. They would've been better off with a different engine to start with, more suited to their original design.
Or...it COULD be that the original engine choice(s) might've worked out, if there were different programmers on the task.
At Sierra, you knew what engine you were going to work with, and you designed with that in mind. Otherwise you'd end up having to change your design when you found out that the engine couldn't support what you'd envisioned (although the systems team did an amazing job of constantly adding to SCI the features that the designers wanted). In the case of these Kickstarted games, if the team had stuck to their initial engine choices and adapted their designs instead, like they may've had to do at Sierra, that would've been a huge delay avoided, but potentially at the cost of the designer's most basic intentions.
One of the advantages of Kickstarting is that you're not tied to any particular engine, tool, whatever. You have the flexibility to change these choices at any time. But you also know that if you take advantage of that flexibility, that's dependably going to mean big delays.
It's faster the Sierra way, where you change what you conceived to accommodate the engine. Faster, but, if your goal is to honor the concept, clearly not better.
That's why I said a game at Sierra would be wholly different, because the design would have to change to accommodate the vagaries of WHATEVER engine Sierra would be using at the time. I'm thinking they would've moved on from SCI by the time SpaceVenture was a project, although I guess what would be best is for them to have a selection of different engines to pick from, to more closely suit a variety of game types. OR, depending on how you're seeing the theoretical situation, if the Designer had KNOWN ahead of time that they'd be creating the game at Sierra, they would've envisioned it differently in the first place because the engine was already established prior to any design decisions being made.
Josh
RE: AMA About Sierra! - Josh_Mandel - 09-28-2025
(09-28-2025, 07:37 AM)Space Quest Historian Wrote:Oh, I see what's happening now. I describe the worst sins a designer can make, then I'm supposed to humiliate myself by: A. detailing my most idiotic decisions for your entertainment pleasure, and B. in so doing, also point out what a hypocrite I am? Is that the game here? Is this how we're playing it? Make me say, "I'm an idiot and a hypocrite, and here're your receipts"?(09-28-2025, 06:45 AM)PrincessPearl Wrote: This is something I've always been confused by- at Sierra what was the difference between the game designer and the game writer?
Not to steal Mr. Mandel's thunder, but, as I understand it and in very broad terms, a "game designer" designs the puzzles and game mechanics and the "game writer" writes all the "you can't do that, at least not now" messages. Most game designers are also writers, so there is some overlap there.
Dear Mr. Mandel,
What are, in your opinion, the greatest sins of adventure game design (specifically puzzle types and/or game mechanics that just makes the act of playing the game absolutely excruciating), and have you ever committed any of them?
Sincerely,
That guy who keeps sending you perfumed Valentine's cards out of season
Okay, sounds like fun!
For starters, I think Rube Goldberg puzzles became a convention in the text adventure days, and designers have been far too slow about consigning them to the wastebin of "frequently bad ideas." It's like a moon logic puzzle, made worse because it's generally an entire SEQUENCE of moon logic that you're asking the player to follow along with, for multiple steps, and there are frequently insufficient hints available. They can be great, but only if they're particularly clever (I'm thinking of the infamous Babel Fish), beautifully logical, and VERY generously clued. Exactly the kind of puzzle that I should have completely rewritten in Orion's Belt in SQ6 -- I'm thinking of the sequence in which you freeze the Endodroid. I don't know, maybe I was feeling particularly cruel when I assembled it, but it needed to be chopped up, rearranged, and thrown out.
Similarly, I think mazes are pretty well played out, almost always annoyances more than anything else, and similarly designers cling to them when, I think, they're desperate to make the game last longer. Again, unless the maze is extremely clever, strictly logical (even if it's only internal logic), and thoroughly clued, they really need to be avoided. Did I do a maze in a game? Yes, of sorts, in Callahan's, but I don't think it rises to the level of objectionable. While it was not particularly clever, it made perfect sense to exist in the environment, and it was so straightforward and short that it didn't need much in the way of hints.
The single biggest sin an adventure game designer can make, I really think, is a more general one that can't be traced to a particular puzzle type or game mechanic (so it doesn't qualify in terms of your actual question!). It's being BORING.
Think of it. You're paying forty, fifty, sixty dollars for one of these experiences. It's far more than you'd drop on a book or a movie, and it would pay for several months of any streaming service offering thousands of hours of programming. And for that 40-60 dollars, you're getting a few hours of entertainment. IT BETTER BE DAMN ENTERTAINING!
I mean, if nothing else, right? Games can vary in their themes, their adherence to real-world logic and physics, even the degree to which they're interactive. They can be delivering a message you don't like, or things can happen to the characters that make you weep, or rage, or otherwise invoke negative feelings. But whatever else they are, they should NEVER BE BORING. Even if they're infuriating at times, that's better than being boring. Especially at that cost-per-hour of entertainment! And especially because every minute of a game is supposed to be scrutinized over and over by designers, artists, programmers, QA...there's even less excuse for slow or dead spots.
Now, you ask me, have *I* been boring?
Yes, I know I have.
Not too long ago, I read the Digital Antiquarian's thoughts about Callahan's (in an article, I think, called "The Last Days of Legend" or something close to that). And it's painfully clear that I bored him to tears, to a point where he was unable to finish the game. That broke my heart. I'm an entertainer by nature, and the thought that I bored someone is much more repulsive to me than the thought that I might've, for instance, offended or angered them, which can be inadvertent or purposeful and useful.
I can only suggest that, if I had had warning that the game was about to be released, I could've at least started the editing pass that I knew the game needed and had always planned to do. But I got literally no notice at all from the publisher or producer that the game was going to be released, I didn't even find out until after it happened. So the editing pass never happened, and the game has a great deal of text that would've been pared down, removed, and/or replaced with something shorter, if not funnier.
So although that's not a specific mechanic or puzzle type, it IS, in my mind, the single biggest mistake a Designer can make.
I guess, in general, I have very few hard-and-fast rules about what not to do in design or execution. When I hear a rule like that, I'm just tempted to find a way to break it, in a way that overcomes what made it objectionable in the first place.
Here's to the Historian and the traps he tries to surreptitiously set for me!
Josh
RE: AMA About Sierra! - Rubacava - 09-29-2025
(09-28-2025, 09:53 PM)Josh_Mandel Wrote: The single biggest sin an adventure game designer can make, I really think, is a more general one that can't be traced to a particular puzzle type or game mechanic (so it doesn't qualify in terms of your actual question!). It's being BORING.
Ahhh, having worked in other areas of the entertainment industry I 100% agree with this. Its the most unforgivable mistake. If you are in the entertainment industry you better damn entertain. I think the most common cause (there are quite a few) is when creators stop making things for themselves and start doing it for the audience.
RE: AMA About Sierra! - LadyKestrel - 09-29-2025
In my not very humble opinion, there is absolutely nothing about Callahan's that is boring. I love, love, love that game! Not only is it both very funny and surprisingly poignant with all those likeable characters, but it also has chocolate. Perhaps throwing empty beer glasses into the fireplace as Spider Robinson wrote in his books might have made a difference for that reviewer, but then having to clean up all that glass would have been...boring.
RE: AMA About Sierra! - Josh_Mandel - 09-30-2025
Well, thank you very kindly, LadyKestrel! I know that everybody didn't feel the way Mr. Digital Antiquarian felt. But even as I was working on it, I knew it was not a game that was going to appeal to the widest possible audience. Too many puns, for starters! There's a good segment of the audience that has no tolerance for those. :-) But I have to admit I was stunned at the DA's thoughts, he was SO unhappy about the game. And, of course, as an entertainer, I tend to blame myself, not the audience.
(Yesterday, 03:27 AM)LadyKestrel Wrote: In my not very humble opinion, there is absolutely nothing about Callahan's that is boring. I love, love, love that game! Not only is it both very funny and surprisingly poignant with all those likeable characters, but it also has chocolate. Perhaps throwing empty beer glasses into the fireplace as Spider Robinson wrote in his books might have made a difference for that reviewer, but then having to clean up all that glass would have been...boring.
RE: AMA About Sierra! - sneaky - 09-30-2025
You sir are a gem. Thanks for everything you do and everything you've done for this industry.
RE: AMA About Sierra! - Beau - 09-30-2025
(Today, 01:33 AM)Josh_Mandel Wrote: Too many puns, for starters!
This sentence does not compute.
RE: AMA About Sierra! - Josh_Mandel - 09-30-2025
(Today, 02:46 AM)sneaky Wrote: You sir are a gem. Thanks for everything you do and everything you've done for this industry.
Well, my god, thank you! I will put an extra layer of tape over the camera, so there's no chance of visible blushing.
Josh
(Today, 03:00 AM)Beau Wrote:(Today, 01:33 AM)Josh_Mandel Wrote: Too many puns, for starters!
This sentence does not compute.
I know! People who don't like puns...it must be a chromosomal thing, like with people who can't stand cilantro. Trying not to punch down, though.
Josh
RE: AMA About Sierra! - Space Quest Historian - 09-30-2025
Thank you for your detailed reply, Mr. Mandel. Excuse me while I swoon for a bit.
Okay, I'm done.
The Endodroid puzzle in SQ6 was a bit convoluted but you shouldn't beat yourself up about it. As with many of the puzzles in SQ6, the biggest problem with it is that you're not given sufficient hints as to WHY you're doing what you're doing. You know you need to capture this fucker, but you're never told that he's vulnerable to the liquid nitrogen. Also, the business with distracting the bartender and having the hose thing on a timer is a bit of a dick move but it is a very classic Space Quest style dick move.
With regards to mazes: Fuck 'em. I just played Universe (the Core Design game) and it ends with a maze that you must navigate while being chased by insta-kill death robots. Now that is an unforgivable dick move.
I also heard that the maze in Shadow of the Comet will teleport you to a random location in the maze when you hit a dead end instead of, you know, telling you you've hit a dead end, making the whole thing nearly impossible to map out. I haven't played it myself but if that's true, then that game takes first prize for being a weapons-grade bag of dicks.