I'd say that it's also one thing if a game in general has out there logic and being thrown curveballs. I think that's why KQ5 is so infamous for the "moon logic" among those games - it just kind of suddenly throws these solutions from nowhere in particular. I don't think there's any indication that the cheese would work to revive the wand, though it's been years since I've played it so maybe it's thrown in somewhere obvious. Either way, the issue is that if you miss the cheese there's no way of knowing that you *need* that item. If they had at least thrown in that you need mold or something, then you'd probably realize that you need to explore that dark dungeon more.

King's Quest 5 definitely has notorious moon logic, but I personally feel a lot of the moon logic started appearing when the transition to point and click took place.  I know Sierra is notorious for selling tons of hint books, but as a person who grew up playing AGI Sierra game without knowing how to save, I beat every game I played without saving and without a hint book, so I know they could be beaten.

Really, it's the point and click where I started to notice the moon logic.  Personally, I feel it's because part of the challenge with the text parser games is figuring out what you have to do.  As an example, take King's Quest 4.  When you're in the whale's mouth, it becomes obvious of what you have to do.  The question is, what's that dangly thing in the mouth called?  And short of having a BBS or hint book, it's not something you could quickly look up.

Another example in KQ4 I've noticed modern gamers state is the bridle.  But it's like, if you've played games back then, it was hardly difficult or moon logic.  You're on an island and you see a boat.  You look at the boat, and the game will tell you that you see something inside the boat.  Look inside the boat, and the game tells you that you see a bridle.  As for use of the bridle, maybe it's because I'm a huge mythology fan, but Pegasus (though not a unicorn) could only be tamed by a golden bridle, so I didn't see much of a leap of logic there either.

But with point and click, you lost those types of puzzles, because they could now be solved with simple clicking, rather than having to figure out what to do.  And really, that's where my love of the genre started to take a hit.

Good point. A lot of it is context of the times.

The original King's Quest reverse backwards Rumpelstiltskin puzzle was pretty horrible, even back then, though. His name is supposed to be " Ifnkovhgroghprm"?!?! At least the later SCI version changed it to just "Nikstlitslepmur" but, come on! There was a "hint" in the totally unrelated witch's gingerbread house telling you to sometimes think backwards, so at least there was that.

Part of the problem with the Rumpelstiltskin puzzle is that they spelled his name incorrectly, which made the puzzle a bit harder than it should have been. And that is an area where a text parser is problematic, because you wouldn't get that type of bug in a point and click. Any interaction would be found quickly by QA, whereas with the name, you use the correct logic and the game tells you you're wrong.

Karlok, there is so much wrong with that entire game that if I started, I wouldn't know how to stop.

LOL! Yes, far too many big flaws. But I also remember a very useful tip if you want to eavesdrop on your neighbors and unfortunately there's a wall in your way: Lure their cat with a bowl of food and tie a recording device to its back. Cats don't mind and nobody will notice.

Foolish Mortals?

Karlok, there is so much wrong with that entire game that if I started, I wouldn't know how to stop.

LOL! Yes, far too many big flaws. But I also remember a very useful tip if you want to eavesdrop on your neighbors and unfortunately there's a wall in your way: Lure their cat with a bowl of food and tie a recording device to its back. Cats don't mind and nobody will notice.

Precious treasures like that are the other redeeming factor of this game (and many similar games that came out around this time).

As a prolific adventure game player, I think at some point I learned to...if not embrace the moon logic...at least be entertained by it in a 'what's the longest possible route between two metaphysical points?' way.

Part of the problem with the Rumpelstiltskin puzzle is that they spelled his name incorrectly, which made the puzzle a bit harder than it should have been. And that is an area where a text parser is problematic, because you wouldn't get that type of bug in a point and click. Any interaction would be found quickly by QA, whereas with the name, you use the correct logic and the game tells you you're wrong.

In Sierra's defense here - you don't need to complete the puzzle to get through the game. So it makes it less painful.

When I was rewriting KQ1 for the SCI version, I looked into the Rumpelstiltskin puzzle quite a bit (of course, the web now is not what it was in 1990, so my options were limited). I knew there was a lot of resentment that the original puzzle was unfair, and with Roberta's permission, I changed it and there are multiple spellings and solutions that KQ1-SCI will accept, including the original one (for purists!), but also simply reversing the name.

What I also found was that the only official spelling is the German one that the Brothers Grimm made up, "Rumpelstilzchen," and that the English version was spelled different ways in different translations. And while one English spelling seemed to dominate, I couldn't determine from the resources available that it was *official* in any way, I couldn't reliably say there was only one "correct" one. So the game accepts, I think, a total of four different solutions.

Thanks for that, Josh. And allow me to say that your Seaman avatar is top-notch.

That puzzle gave me so much grief as a kid! I wanted to beat it on my own, because my dad didn't like me faxing Sierra's hint department ;-)

I never could figure it out though, so I finally gave up and used the fax machine. The SCI version really was much better and fairer. To this day, whenever I meet someone named "Ifnkovhgroghprm" I feel stressed ;-)

Really, it's the point and click where I started to notice the moon logic.  Personally, I feel it's because part of the challenge with the text parser games is figuring out what you have to do. 

That darned "icebox" in Colonel's Bequest, though I think it's one of the first games where if you had mouse support, you could right click items.

Another example in KQ4 I've noticed modern gamers state is the bridle.  But it's like, if you've played games back then, it was hardly difficult or moon logic.  You're on an island and you see a boat.  You look at the boat, and the game will tell you that you see something inside the boat.  Look inside the boat, and the game tells you that you see a bridle.  As for use of the bridle, maybe it's because I'm a huge mythology fan, but Pegasus (though not a unicorn) could only be tamed by a golden bridle, so I didn't see much of a leap of logic there either.

I agree - I don't think the bridle thing is even a puzzle as down to the mentality that you'd have to explore every screen carefully. If you do that, it's impossible to miss. I guess it sucks that you can't make your way back there, but really, save early, save often!